The Irish Mitsubishi FTO Owners Club

Posted: **Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:44 pm**

ireland.com wrote:The Minister for the Environment has announced a new system of calculating car tax that he said will give motorists the incentive to buy more environmentally friendly cars from July 1st next year.

John Gormley has delivered a "carbon budget" in the Dáil that identifies how the State can reduce harmful carbon dioxide emissions to counteract climate change, to protect the economy and to meet its international obligations.
The clear objective of this new motor tax system is to influence the purchasing decisions of consumers by rewarding the buyers of low-emitting cars and charging a premium on less efficient vehicles
Minister for the Environment John Gormley

He said climate change "is the greatest challenge facing humanity over the coming century".

The Minister announced that with effect from July 1st next year, there will be a "fundamental change" in the manner in which motor tax is charged for all new cars and imported cars.

Tax will in future be charged solely on the emissions and the system will be rebalanced in favour of cars with lower emissions, he said. This system only applies to cars bought from next July.

Other cars will be taxed based on the current system of engine size, to which changes were also announced in yesterday's Budget.

Seven CO2 "bands" from A-G will determine the rate of tax payable on a vehicle.

Mr Gormley said there will be a "commonality of approach" between the motor tax and VRT systems. There will be a mandatory labelling system for cars based on their emissions levels.

This will be accompanied by a public information campaign which will promote the purchase of fuel efficient cars, the Minister said.

"I see the proposed improvements in vehicle labelling as a positive step in enabling Irish motorists to make more informed choices in buying new vehicles, and I look forward to support from the motor industry in making its introduction a success."

Motor tax rates will be graduated as one moves up the CO2 bands.

* Band A (under 120 grams per km) - €100.
* Band B (121-140 grams perkm) - €150.
* Band C (141-155 grams per km) - € 290.
* Band D (156-170 grams per km) - €430.
* Band E (171-190 grams per km) -€ 600.
* Band F (191-225 grams per km) - €1,000.
* Band G, the top band -€2,000, reflecting CO2 emissions of over 225grams per km.

This would make the FTO either €1,000 or €2,000 a year to tax (presuming it's in the top band) if you import one later than the summer of 08. Good for values of FTO's already imported and using the old tax system. Bad for people who want to bring one in themselves.

Posted: **Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:28 pm**

You're right Colm. I reckon the FTO is in the top bracket for CO2 though I wonder how the Government are going to be able to come up with a figure seeing as Mitsubishi never did.

If they do apply the top rate then there will certainly be no more importing of FTO's. Insurance is already a killer on an FTO - Paying an additional 2K a year in road tax on a 5K car won't make sense to anyone.

This tax could have the opposite effect to that intended though. There is no car that has below 225CO2 per km that is of any interest to me and no rising scale for any pollution over that - so whats to stop anyone from moving from a 230CO2 per km 2 litre family saloon and moving to say a 350CO2 4X4 like a VW Touareg or Audi Q7?

Posted: **Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:41 pm**

Just another reason to move all the young people out of Ireland I think. And they wonder why emmigration was so high before, well they're going to do it again! I know for damn sure I will if it keeps going like this!

Posted: **Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:34 pm**

Lads, this only applies to new cars. The fact that emmissions info isn't readily available for old imported cars would make me think thay will stick to the current system in the medium term anyway.

There was talk of the NCT crowd measuring emmisions on older cars and using this as a basis for tax, somehow I don't think that this will come into play, too many mitigating factors for error in the testing process.

CJ

Posted: **Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:33 pm**

CJ wrote:Lads, this only applies to new cars. The fact that emmissions info isn't readily available for old imported cars would make me think thay will stick to the current system in the medium term anyway.

There was talk of the NCT crowd measuring emmisions on older cars and using this as a basis for tax, somehow I don't think that this will come into play, too many mitigating factors for error in the testing process.

CJ

Damn... Hope I don't have to NCT my car

It must be putting out about 400 grams of co2 per km at this stage.... Thanks milltek.

Posted: **Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:44 pm**

CJ wrote:Lads, this only applies to new cars.

At the moment this is only for new cars.... but you might be suprised by some - you can check most cars emissions here

http://www.smmtco2.co.uk/co2search2.asp

The BMW 130i is 197g/km and the BMW 335d is only 177g/km so both would be cheaper to tax than current rates. But the Zed is 280g/km so hits 2k euro car tax.

Posted: **Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:31 am**

there will be a "fundamental change" in the manner in which motor tax is charged for all new cars and imported cars.

Posted: **Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:45 am**

colm_mcm wrote:
there will be a "fundamental change" in the manner in which motor tax is charged for all new cars and imported cars.

i understand it to mean that any car that is first registered in the state from July 08 onward. whether it be a new car or an imported car. If its new to registration in Ireland...

Posted: **Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:22 am**

mcgon1979 wrote:
colm_mcm wrote:
there will be a "fundamental change" in the manner in which motor tax is charged for all new cars and imported cars.

i understand it to mean that any car that is first registered in the state from July 08 onward. whether it be a new car or an imported car. If its new to registration in Ireland...

My understanding also. Any car registered in Ireland after Jul 08 will be subject to this CO2 tax.

Posted: **Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:43 pm**

Myfeckin FTO wrote:
mcgon1979 wrote:
colm_mcm wrote:
there will be a "fundamental change" in the manner in which motor tax is charged for all new cars and imported cars.

i understand it to mean that any car that is first registered in the state from July 08 onward. whether it be a new car or an imported car. If its new to registration in Ireland...

My understanding also. Any car registered in Ireland after Jul 08 will be subject to this CO2 tax.

Agreed, seems to be cars first registered in the state after Jul 08, regardless of wheather they are new or used. I am a bit wary of this two teired tax system. Firstly there will be more oil burners on the road and secondly it will sque (sp?) used car prices, there will be an increase in the import rate of supposed 'clean' cars -which would enjoy the lower tax rates, this will also hammer the residual values of the equivalent Irish car (with the higher tax associated).

I see a huge market developing in aftermarket tuning, remapped turbo's will be the order of the day.

Posted: **Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:51 pm**

I've a feeling this may have to be changed - if you think about it we'll now have 2 car tax systems which will result in some people with the exact same car paying different tax. For example - a new BMW 320D registered in Jul 07 will cost 600+ to tax but the same car registered in Jul 08 will only cost 150 - I'd be suprised if they can make this work....

Posted: **Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:08 pm**

Ouch. this really is punitive. Just checking the above CO2 calculator.
The celica 1.8 190bhp, and the alfa GT 2l 150bhp both fall into band F, €1000 per year motor tax. :smt090

. Even the lotus elise with it's light body and small engine is falling into this band. :roll:

I'm inclined to think that these measures will be counter productive. Assuming you belive that they are enviromentally driven. Basically people will be inclined to hold on to their old 'polluting' cars (with their cheaper tax rates) for longer.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:18 pm**

Somebody should do something about all this - not sure what but something has to be done... I mean if they're wanting to be greener could they not start by tackling stuff like the electricity supply... where's all the windmills? Plenty of wind about..

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:02 pm**

This also applies to new cars AND used imports I am afraid....

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:27 pm**

It's mental - the sale of new cars with proper engines will take a hit..What I really don't understand is that there seems to be less of an impact on Diesel cars...surely as Diesel is a dirtier fuel these larger engine smokemachines pollute more than a two liter "gas gussler"..

I pity anybody wanting to import an american car..

I've half been toying with the idea that I at somestage in my life would like to own an old american muscle car of some description - obviously Id need a garage and such before even looking at one - but as it stands now I daren't think about the cost involved..

Right now I'm annoyed I can't vote..

Posted: **Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:57 am**

Muad_dib77 wrote:It's mental - the sale of new cars with proper engines will take a hit..What I really don't understand is that there seems to be less of an impact on Diesel cars...surely as Diesel is a dirtier fuel these larger engine smokemachines pollute more than a two liter "gas gussler"..

The new diesels are very clean to start with as new. thats why a new 1.9 TDi golf is 150euro per year to tax from july 08. and a new 1.4 petrol golf is 500euro!!!!! joke. apparently after 4 or 5 years though, the diesels are FILTHY and their emissions will double if not properly(expensively) serviced. Dunno how they will regulate that though. A huge number of cars in Sweden are diesel now due to similar green 'initiatives'. Here is a recent study from Sweden

Swedish EPA warns increase in diesel cars could damage environment (13 November 1998)

New diesel cars cause more harm to the environment and to health than new petrol-fuelled cars, according to a study carried out by the Swedish Environmental Protection Agency.

The study found that diesel cars emit much greater amounts of nitrogen oxides, particulates and carcinogenic substances than new petrol-driven cars. And as more and more car buyers switch to diesel, the study anticipates a considerable increase in nitrogen oxide emissions.
The study shows that if diesel car sales rise from 1 to 20 percent, emissions of nitrogen oxides from new cars will double and particulate emissions will be 2.5 times higher. Nitrogen oxide emissions contribute to the acidification of lakes and soil and to the eutrophication of coastal waters.
Advertisers often stress the fact that diesels use 20 to 25 percent less fuel. However, one litre of diesel oil produces about 15 percent more carbon dioxide than one litre of petrol, meaning that emissions of carbon dioxide are only negligibly less from diesel cars. An increase in diesel car sales from 1 to 20 percent therefore reduces carbon dioxide emissions by a mere 1-2 per cent.
In terms of cancer risk, negative effects on respiratory passages and acute health problems, a modern petrol-driven car has the least negative impact on our health. Emissions from new diesel cars are estimated to be 3-4 times more carcinogenic than emissions from petrol cars. A modern diesel also emits about 10-15 times more particulates than a modern petrol car. New diesels are however much better than older ones.
"The current trend in increased sales of diesel cars is actually jeopardising our chances of achieving the environmental goals for cleaner air and reduced acidification and eutrophication", says Reino Abrahamsson at the Swedish EPA.
"For the sake of the environment, it is better if car buyers choose a fuel-efficient environmentally classified petrol-driven car rather than a diesel", he adds.

Posted: **Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:12 am**

to be fair, that report is nearly 10 years old. diesel technology, especially in the area of particulates emitted has moved on since then.

Posted: **Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:00 pm**

I'd be interested to know how they're going to start classifying older JDM cars, as far as I know, emmisions reports don't exist for older marques.

CJ

Posted: **Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:03 pm**

CJ wrote:I'd be interested to know how they're going to start classifying older JDM cars, as far as I know, emmisions reports don't exist for older marques.

CJ

Could they use the pass/fail criteria from the NCT?

Posted: **Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:08 pm**

the NCT can't measure the CO2 emissions per km, which is what the tax system is going to be based on
Things like vehicle weight, aerodynamics, gear ratios etc effect the CO2 per km that the car will do.
For example, a Golf TDI and a Sharan TDI should have the same emissions at idle, but the Sharan will emit more CO2 per km.

Posted: **Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:57 pm**

Taken from The Indo:

All new cars bought from July will pay a purchase tax related to their carbon emissions.

Those who already own or buy cars before that date will continue to pay car tax after July 1 based on engine size until the car is scrapped and they purchase a new model.

From July 1, owners of new gas-guzzling SUVs and other big engine cars bought from that date are being being hit with an extra 500 euro a year car tax.

It still doesn't explain how second hand imported cars will be dealt with. I can't see how emissions will come into it in terms of classification, I would guess that older imported cars will be subjct the the increased tax rates in terms of engine size.

CJ

Posted: **Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:31 pm**

CJ wrote:Taken from The Indo:

All new cars bought from July will pay a purchase tax related to their carbon emissions.

Those who already own or buy cars before that date will continue to pay car tax after July 1 based on engine size until the car is scrapped and they purchase a new model.

From July 1, owners of new gas-guzzling SUVs and other big engine cars bought from that date are being being hit with an extra 500 euro a year car tax.

It still doesn't explain how second hand imported cars will be dealt with. I can't see how emissions will come into it in terms of classification, I would guess that older imported cars will be subjct the the increased tax rates in terms of engine size.

CJ

I can't remember where I read it but imported used cars which do not have C02 data available will be taxed at the highest rate available of 2000 euro - I think it may have been on the irish times online site that I read that - I'll check and post a link.

Posted: **Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:05 pm**

Definitely for VRT those cars with no co2 rating or those cars which for which the co2 rating cannot be accurately identified will be charged at the highest rate - see point 7 in this doc

http://www.budget.gov.ie/2008/downloads/AnnexD.pdf

I'm sure I read somewhere this would also apply to the new tax rates for any used imports registered after Jul 08.

Posted: **Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:22 pm**

That's crazy and anti competitive.

Posted: **Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:50 pm**

Performance imports are going to get it from 2 sides - Both VRT and Road tax - come July 08. It could do a lot of damage to the Jap Performance car in Ireland. I'm sure mainstream Stealers - sorry I mean - dealers, won't exactly be crying into their mochachinos.

It'll likely mean that we'll also be holding onto our pre july 08 cars for much longer. You won't be able to replace the FTO with a lower mileage newer model as they'll no longer be worth importing - unless - what if? -

You bring in an almost identical model/year/colour FTO and swap the VIN/Chassis no. and use your old car for spares. No need to register the new car as it will never be (offically) on the road. But of course that would be illegal - you'd be doing the government out of their badly needed VRT and tax money to enable them to increase public spending for the next fiscal year. You would however have a fresher model FTO, not have to pay VRT and still be on the lower rate of road tax. Plus you'd have another FTO for spares.

But of course like I said - that would be illegal. Maybe not morally wrong but it would be illegal. :wink:

The Irish Mitsubishi FTO Owners Club

No more importing FTO's from Japan?

No more importing FTO's from Japan?