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Postby soc » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:21 pm

sinlessgunner wrote:And just in response to the immigrants comment. I don't mean any offence by this at all and I know the Irish done it in the 80's, but with the amount of money being paid to foreign people working here, the small percentage of it being put back into the economy is devastating. The more money being made in the country directly affects the cost of living and the minimum wage. However, the extra money is leaving the country and not balancing out the economy. When you consider that around 6 billion euro left our economy last year, it's not surprising the way things have gone. Of course the Polish etc have the right to come here and work I do not have any problem with this at all. It's just mismanagement by the Government yet again that lead to the associated problems.


While I see your point I have to highlight that we would be f**ked with out the immigrants - apart from the value add to our technical industries they contribute hugely to rental income. Take that away and what's going to happen? Bring on the property crash!
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Postby soc » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:37 pm

mcgon1979 wrote:The government is the biggest employer in this country. And in fairness, they must carry ALOT of dead weight. 8000 civil servants work in the department of Agriculture for example. Doing what exactly?!?!

The public sector workers constantly bemoan the fact that their peers n the private sector are paid better? Marginally if at all in my opinion. but the private sector is RUTHLESS.. Job today, gone tomorrow. At least the public sector is safe. (part of the problem in this country).


Can you tell this whole subject is close to my heart :wink: but don't get me started on the public sector as a body - NOI to anyone working for a public sector but as a body the inefficiency and wastage is simply mind boggling :evil: It absolutely galls me to hear the unions bullshit on about the national pay agreement arguing for pay rises for nothing. Just because inflation rises should not automatically entitle anyone to a pay rise - how idiotic is that?? Anyone ever come across the concept of earning your pay rises? :roll:

I've become very intolerant of poor public sector service which has resulted in more than a few harsh words over the past few months dealing with revenue, dun laoghaire-rathdown county council, etc.
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Postby Bernard » Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:05 pm

I think there are very few sectors of society that aren't worried about the coming recession.

We bought our house just over four years ago with a 92% mortgage for €170K which, given the way the market was at the time wasn't bad.
However, we've just come off a 2 year fixed rate.
I decided (with advice) to go back on a fixed rate (5.99%) for the next 4 years. Without factoring in the government contribution our monthly payment has gone up around €120.
Add that to the rising cost of bills and the fact that both the missus and I work in Dell.... worrying times indeed.
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Postby sinlessgunner » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:27 pm

soc wrote:The government is the biggest employer in this country. And in fairness, they must carry ALOT of dead
I've become very intolerant of poor public sector service which has resulted in more than a few harsh words over the past few months dealing with revenue, dun laoghaire-rathdown county council, etc.


I work in the public sector. While I can see where the criticism comes from I also feel obliged to stand up for a few issues. There are 7-800 people working in the building I'm in. The problem is the amount of 'chiefs' and the lack of 'indians'. There are much too many staff at higher grades, in higher salaries etc. Promotion in the civil service is not based on competence or work rate, it's based on the quality of your interview and nothing more. This is also the problem with the HSE. No nurses but too much admin staff. There are people, such as myself, who come in and do an honest day's work. There is a misconception of the civil service in this country and while I can see how money is wasted there, there are much worse things than public sector workers draining the country's money! :)
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Postby soc » Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:18 am

sinlessgunner wrote:
soc wrote:The government is the biggest employer in this country. And in fairness, they must carry ALOT of dead
I've become very intolerant of poor public sector service which has resulted in more than a few harsh words over the past few months dealing with revenue, dun laoghaire-rathdown county council, etc.


I work in the public sector. While I can see where the criticism comes from I also feel obliged to stand up for a few issues. There are 7-800 people working in the building I'm in. The problem is the amount of 'chiefs' and the lack of 'indians'. There are much too many staff at higher grades, in higher salaries etc. Promotion in the civil service is not based on competence or work rate, it's based on the quality of your interview and nothing more. This is also the problem with the HSE. No nurses but too much admin staff. There are people, such as myself, who come in and do an honest day's work. There is a misconception of the civil service in this country and while I can see how money is wasted there, there are much worse things than public sector workers draining the country's money! :)


I hear what your saying - unfortunately my direct experience when having to deal with anyone working the public sector is that 95% of the time I come away intensely annoyed at the lack of attention and general disrespect and often rudeness I encounter. Added to that it's a rare day I ever take any confidence that the job is being done well. To give you a real world example - I paid for mail redirection with An Post over a month ago and so far have not received any mail to our new address - I called them and after 15 minutes faffing around was told there were too many people with the same name in their database and it would take some time to go through the list and identify my details - they'd call me back in 30 minutes. Did I get a call back? F**k no! Next day still no phone call so I called again - no answer - from their customer care line!!!! So I emailed - 2 days later I get a reply - 2 f**king days!! Aparently mail redirect is set up for me but I still have no mail - so they say they'll track the mail - so f**king what - tell me what's been delivered I ask - could they? As if! So now I have to check with everyone who I think should have sent me some mail to confirm some letters have gone missing!! And I paid for this service!! And you think the public sector is judged harshly - AFAIC as a body the public sector is a pathetic.
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Postby mcgon1979 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:26 am

Have to agree with Soc on this one. Harsh it may be, but that pretty much is similar to my experiences dealing with the public sector. :roll:
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Postby mcgon1979 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:53 pm

anyone read Kev Myers article on immigration. Fair play to him for writing it. Everyone in this country from media to the public wilfully has their head in the sand regarding African immigration here. (for fear of being labelled a racist ted)

Risible lies about immigrants no substitute for honest debate

By Kevin Myers

Friday August 15 2008

D'you know -- and for reasons you might possibly soon understand -- I was rather hoping that someone else was going to pick up on a story which appeared when I was on my summer break. But no one did. Hmmm. I wonder why? Ah well, into the valley of death, et cetera.

Last week, the figures appeared for the numbers of people receiving full state-subsidy for rental accommodation in Ireland. Nearly 40pc of them are immigrants. Most of these are EU nationals, and are entitled by law to the same benefits as are Irish nationals. So, the 3,061 British-born people who are getting their accommodation paid for by the state are enjoying no more than the rights which Irish people in Britain would get. Indeed, the British are top of the league of foreigners who are claiming rent allowance. And this is not surprising, for they are also the most numerous foreign group, numbering some 112,000, according to the 2006 census.

Second in the list of foreign groups availing of free accommodation, courtesy of the State, are who? Citizens of fellow EU states, such as the Poles, the Latvians, the Czechs or Slovaks? No, indeed not. The people who come second in the rent-allowance league table are the Nigerians -- barely less than the British, with 3,024 claimants. But whereas the British figure constitutes just 2.7pc of the total population of Britons living here, the figure for Nigerians is 18.6pc of their total Irish population of 16,300. Alas, just how many more Nigerian dependents are the beneficiaries of the rent allowances that are being granted to the 3,024 family-heads, I cannot say.

Now this reliance upon the state for the accommodation of so many Nigerians reflects another rather uncomfortable truth which was revealed in the 2006 census, but which has never -- so far as I know -- been highlighted in the media. It is this: contrary to almost all predictions about the impact of immigrants upon an economy, a majority of Nigerians are not economically active at all. For even at the height of the boom, in 2006, only 38pc over the age of 15 were at work.

Maybe this is because so many are too old for work? Not so. There are almost no Nigerians over 50. Their average age is 26.6, with some 10,000 between the ages of 25 and 44. Yes, there are a large number of Nigerian children (3,845 under fifteen), but that figure of 38pc at work is a percentage of the over-15s only. The equivalent working proportions are: Poles, 84pc; Lithuanians, 82pc; and Latvians 82pc. On the other hand, the figures for rental-subsidy (remember: Nigerians 18.6pc) are Poles, 1.5pc; Lithuanians, 3pc; and Latvians, 4.3pc.

Now, you may think that what you have read so far has required a colossal amount of sleuthing -- not so. Most of these figures were presented in five separate national profiles -- British, Latvian, Polish, Lithuanian, Nigerian -- by the Central Statistics Office in its report on the 2006 census, no doubt to make life easier for us baffled, thicko, journalists. Yet so far as I can see, no other journalist has chosen to use the startling CSO revelations, leading to the first of many questions, all of them beginning -- why?

Why are so many people, from a country to which we have no moral or legal or historical obligations, living off this state? Why are they being allowed through immigration, if they have no jobs to go to? Why are they choosing to come to Ireland, when 20 countries or more lie between their homeland and ourselves? And finally, and perhaps most important of all, why is no one else asking why? Why did no one else pick up on the immigration digest so thoughtfully provided by the CSO?

Is it because we are too polite? Too timid? Too stupid? Too scared about being called racist? Which is all very well, but such intellectual and emotional repression does not usually end benignly. In place of openly spoken and verifiable truths, risible lies are whispered and believed, such as that "asylum seekers" are given free driving lessons and even cars, or that the ducks in public parks are vanishing because immigrants are catching and eating them. The acceptance of such gibberish is the foot-in-the-door of racist scaremongering, and can only happen in the dark of media-contrived ignorance, and all usually ending in tears.

For the real issue is not the number of Nigerians living here, nor even the absurd and unacceptable dependency of so many of them on this State. No, it is the abject refusal of the Irish people, both through the media and the Dail, to have an open debate about the biggest issue facing this country. Instead, to judge from events this time last year, our national broadcaster will soon be accusing the Catholic Church of racism -- either for wanting Catholic children in its Catholic schools, or for not preparing places for African children who were not even in Ireland when the school rolls were being filled. And, naturally, for this is Ireland, it's professionally far more rewarding for the media to go on an easy, Catholic-bashing spree than it is to inquire into the complex and possibly discomfiting truths about immigration.

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Postby johnny » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:58 pm

soc wrote:To give you a real world example - I paid for mail redirection with An Post over a month ago and so far have not received any mail to our new address - I called them and after 15 minutes faffing around was told there were too many people with the same name in their database and it would take some time to go through the list and identify my details - they'd call me back in 30 minutes. Did I get a call back? F**k no! Next day still no phone call so I called again - no answer - from their customer care line!!!! So I emailed - 2 days later I get a reply - 2 f**king days!! Aparently mail redirect is set up for me but I still have no mail - so they say they'll track the mail - so f**king what - tell me what's been delivered I ask - could they? As if! So now I have to check with everyone who I think should have sent me some mail to confirm some letters have gone missing!! And I paid for this service!! And you think the public sector is judged harshly - AFAIC as a body the public sector is a pathetic.


Thats bad form....now don't shoot me but I work for An Post...thats a load of crap you were told about the time needed to 'go through the database' (as I'm sure you know). I could find anyones details on the database within seconds. Unfortunately I cant help you as I'm merely an engineer improving sorting equipment.

Back on topic.....
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Postby Bernard » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:01 pm

mcgon1979 wrote:it's professionally far more rewarding for the media to go on an easy, Catholic-bashing spree than it is to inquire into the complex and possibly discomfiting truths about immigration.

kmyers@independent.ie


The world has gone far to PC, it reminds me of "the emperors new clothes" :roll:
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Postby fatboyfat7 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:42 pm

Sorry to hear that Mick. Hope things turn up for you...
My only imput is how annoying it is the amount of people claiming the dole who could work. Im 22 and I know guys who just live off the dole getting 200 a week cause its more worthwhile and easier for them than working 25 hours part time somewhere. And these people COULD get jobs. I also know trades people and construction workers who have been claiming benefits for ages, getting cash under the table and doing foxers on top etc. One guy recently joked about how he collected it one day and he'd forgotten to take his tool belt off from around his waste! No one coped it...
We're as bad as anyone else for screwing this country. I do recall though a few months ago the government announced some plan to reduce the numbers claiming benefit by issueing a deadline or something....? Very hazey on this but if anybody could expand?
And as Im ranting... Foreign registered cars driving over here... Pisses me off, we have to pay VRT but they just give some line saying they have an address in wherever...
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Postby soc » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:26 pm

johnny wrote:
soc wrote:To give you a real world example - I paid for mail redirection with An Post over a month ago and so far have not received any mail to our new address - I called them and after 15 minutes faffing around was told there were too many people with the same name in their database and it would take some time to go through the list and identify my details - they'd call me back in 30 minutes. Did I get a call back? F**k no! Next day still no phone call so I called again - no answer - from their customer care line!!!! So I emailed - 2 days later I get a reply - 2 f**king days!! Aparently mail redirect is set up for me but I still have no mail - so they say they'll track the mail - so f**king what - tell me what's been delivered I ask - could they? As if! So now I have to check with everyone who I think should have sent me some mail to confirm some letters have gone missing!! And I paid for this service!! And you think the public sector is judged harshly - AFAIC as a body the public sector is a pathetic.


Thats bad form....now don't shoot me but I work for An Post...thats a load of crap you were told about the time needed to 'go through the database' (as I'm sure you know).


Aye, I know alright - this is my point exactly - the level of service is generally pretty poor yet every harps on about national pay agreements and getting their cushy little pay rises.

It f**ks me off that I work 60+ hours a week in a highly pressurised environment and have to constantly prove myself to gain reward and then you hear all the pay deal crap.
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Postby soc » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:34 pm

fatboyfat7 wrote:I also know trades people and construction workers who have been claiming benefits for ages, getting cash under the table and doing foxers on top etc. One guy recently joked about how he collected it one day and he'd forgotten to take his tool belt off from around his waste! No one coped it...


You have a moral obligation to report such individuals - I would not hesitate if it were me. We're all old enough to be above the "I'm not a rat" rubbish - if someone is ripping off the social welfare system then they are direct contributors to the big problems we are going to have in the coming years.
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Postby kevinod » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:33 pm

sinlessgunner wrote:Promotion in the civil service is not based on competence or work rate, it's based on the quality of your interview and nothing more.


Doesn't only happen in the public sector unfortunately...
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