Petrol & Bio-Eth

[Dragonheart]

Been using this now in the 1:4 mix for the past 2 weeks anytime I've had to fill up, which has been 3 times. Just wondering is it ok to use it so often or should it be only done on an intermittent basis, as in once in every 3 times or something? Dont want to damage my engine or anything if its too rich to be using constantly.

[Myfeckin FTO]

Been using this now in the 1:4 mix for the past 2 weeks anytime I've had to fill up, which has been 3 times. Just wondering is it ok to use it so often or should it be only done on an intermittent basis, as in once in every 3 times or something? Dont want to damage my engine or anything if its too rich to be using constantly.

I'm using a similar mix of E85 and E5 in the Zed. Zed def runs better on it - but then I am running a bigger fuel pump, larger injectors, EMS and decat exhaust so there is a lot of scope for running E85. My only doubts centre around the E85 eating into any rubber hoses/injector O rings etc but I'm hoping that its not concentrated enough to cause any damage.

As long as your ECU can adjust for the fuel then I don't see the harm really. Perhaps stick in a strong E85 mix and run it on a rolling road to see how the ECU handles the fuel?

[Dragonheart]

Didnt even think of the rubber hoses and stuff, was thinking purely of the injectors and fuel pump.
Would upgrading to a Walbro make a difference as in making it safer?

[Myfeckin FTO]

Didnt even think of the rubber hoses and stuff, was thinking purely of the injectors and fuel pump.
Would upgrading to a Walbro make a difference as in making it safer?

If you are using an E85 mix then you are going to have to put more fuel through the system as E85 could have up to 32% less "calorific" content. This is going to put a strain on your existing fuel system especially at wide open throttle - so upgrading the fuel pump plus a fuel pressure regulator, plus larger injectors plus possibly some kind of piggyback ECU to manage the fueling would all probably be a good idea. Combine with a good intake and decat exhaust and of course a proper map will realise the max potential of this mod - I reckon you could pull an extra 20bhp from doing the above on a GPX.

[Mustang]

I've been toying with this idea, for a while now -not necessarily for the the FTO though. I do put a few litres of E85 in when I think of it, when I've an almost full tank.

I hadn't considered the additional work required by the fuel pump -I wonder would this be a significant issue?
The piggy back ECU's are plug and play and can be bought from the US for around €300, so a relatively inexpensive venture. However as Per MyfeckinFTO the fuel economy/ cost is effectively cash neutral. That is E85 contains approximately 30% less energy than petrol, it is (I'm sure by no coincidence) approximately 30% less expensive than petrol. In short cheaper to buy but you'll need to buy more often -so no real saving on the fuel front.

Like I say those conversion kits are just a piggy back ecu. -i.e. purely an electronic device, no mechanical modifications required -the vendors reckon that they will work on any modern vehicle. The issue of rubber O-rings is apparenly a bit of an urban legend (or so say the conversion kit suppliers), and that all manufacturers up-specced their seals years ago. I wouldn't like to be the guinea pig though.Tempted to pick up a jap box at auction fit a covertor and run on trial for a while..... Many countries use E10 and higher on standard vehicles.

The following minor issues are also a consideration. The alcohol content will 'clean' the fuel pump and tank releasing waxy deposits, which can clog the fuel filter. If you are using increasing amounts of ethanol, you should allow maybe a thousand miles or so then change the fuel filter.
Also advisable to do an oil and filter change at that time.

[Dragonheart]

If the piggyback ecu is only that much then it might be worth it.
Only thing is which would be priority, the walbro, upgraded injectors, or ecu? I'd imagine the fuel pump would be first, then injectors, and then the ecu?
Also Mustang when you say change the fuel filter after 1000, I presume you go back to a standard service timeline after changing after the 1000 as the deposits will be gotten rid of?
Good points all though lads, thanks for the replies.

[Myfeckin FTO]

........
Only thing is which would be priority, the walbro, upgraded injectors, or ecu? ..........

IMHO you would need all the above for the upgrade to be effective. Otherwise whatever you leave out will be the bottleneck.

[colm_mcm]

isn't all petrol going to be E10 in a while anyway?

[Mustang]

If the piggyback ecu is only that much then it might be worth it.

This is the crowd I was looking at. A kit for a mitsubishi 6 cylinder is priced at $374.99. A kit for a 4 cylinder toyata is priced at $319.99. All very cheap. I imagine these do not facilitate any programming, so will (probably) work fine to compliment your existing ECU -however if you want performance gains I imagine you'll need a programmable ECU -considerably more money, I'd guess.

Meanwhile there is anIrish company offering what appears to be a similar plug and play conversion kit for twice the price (€650):roll:

From their website

What has to be changed on the vehicle for E85 use?
The conversion kits used consist of a control unit, wiring harness, temperature sensor and power cable. The wiring harness is plug and play which means no wires have to be cut and shut.

Again just an ECU unit, no mechanical changes whatsoever, no seals, etc.

Also Mustang when you say change the fuel filter after 1000, I presume you go back to a standard service timeline after changing after the 1000 as the deposits will be gotten rid of?

Yes that is my understanding.

........
Only thing is which would be priority, the walbro, upgraded injectors, or ecu? ..........

IMHO you would need all the above for the upgrade to be effective. Otherwise whatever you leave out will be the bottleneck.

I agree to a point -that is based on the assumption that there is no additional capacity in the existing fuel pump, and injectors (i.e. that they are delivering close to their maximum rated load, using petrol, with no additional capacity to deliver the higher flowrates required for E85 operation. (BTW this is probably a reasonable assumption!). Agree on the ECU though.

In summary if you want to convert to E85 -you can buy a self install kit for ~€300. You probably won't save any money (or the planet) but it will be cheaper to fill up -even if you have to do it more often. There may be some small gain in performance due to the higher octane.

If performance is your goal, with an E85 conversion, you will more than likely need the fuel pump, injectors, programmable ECU to realise any real gains. I've no idea what a programmable ECU costs, but I doubt this could be done for less than €1k.

[Myfeckin FTO]

......If performance is your goal, with an E85 conversion, you will more than likely need the fuel pump, injectors, programmable ECU to realise any real gains. I've no idea what a programmable ECU costs, but I doubt this could be done for less than €1k.

Yep - if performance is your goal (and lets face it you are driving a performance coupe) then I reckon its well worth spending the extra on Walbro fuel pump, fuel pressure reg, larger injectors and an ECU (with a proper map). The ECU is going to by far the biggest cost. ECU's have moved on a lot from the days of dastek piggybacks on the FTO - something like a Haltech or Motec would be a far better ECU but they are costly (unless you can pick one up 2nd-hand). The Haltech and Motec have dual maps which will allow for the mivec changeover point and adjust fueling/ignition maps to suit.

Now having said all that - if you fitted the fuel pump, fuel pressure reg and larger injectors (then reset ECU to adjust to fueling) and took her to a rolling road you should get a good idea of how the standard ECU is adjusting to suit. I've no idea of exactly how adjustable the standard FTO ECU is with dealing with large changes to fueling - it might just be capable but without putting it on a rolling road you won't find out.

Its an interesting project that I'd be doing if I still had an FTO. Fuel pump, fuel pressure reg and injectors will set you back a few hundred - then run it on the rolling road (Couture Auto,TDP, Westward, West Coast Performance etc ) and then if needed get the relevant tuner to fit either the Haltech or Motec (upwards of a grand + labour for the ECU).

[witcher]

Just my piece on the subject.
You will have no power gains switching to E-5 or E85. You will not save money either, since you need to inject much more E-5 or E - 85 into the engine to run it properly. As some people wrote already you need app 30% more E's fuel than gasoline. You do run a risk of damaging your fuel system (including tank), more so with E-85 since ethanol is very corrosive. These are major disadvantages
So why use it??
E-5 and E-85 have much higher octane number than gasoline, E-85 octane number is nearly 102 (ok, it is 101.6), nearly race fuel number! and that makes these fuels much more detonation resistant. Moreover these fuels burn cooler, and that is always good news for your engine. These two factors makes them very suitable for turbocharged and supercharged engines, allowing for running much more boost than when using pump fuel (especially here in Ireland where premium 98 octane gasoline is very difficult to find). These fuels also burn cleaner leaving much less deposites in your engine.
So your engine will run smoothly on E's and you will be saving the engine, making for prolonged use. As long as you run e-5 there is no real need for changing your ECU since ECU will compensate for lesser energy (heating value for geeks among us:)). I also have friends running on E-5 for over a year now and they do not report any major issues with corrosion (yet). E-85 is another story, you need at least increased fuel pressure, the best option would be bigger injectors and programmed ECU, mapped by somebody knowledgeable, (E-85 burns slower so tempering with spark advance timing is needed), but you need to ask yourself a question is it worth the expenses?
Personally I would not switch NA engine to e-85, but I will convert whole fuel system to E-85 the moment I buy my second, turbocharged toy (there is a Nissan Silvia S 14a somewhere there with my name on it , but I am keeping the FTO anyway).
If anyone requires more sophisticated or in depth explanation or information on differences between E's and gasoline just shout.

[Myfeckin FTO]

Just my piece on the subject.
You will have no power gains switching to E-5 or E85. You will not save money either, since you need to inject much more E-5 or E - 85 into the engine to run it properly. As some people wrote already you need app 30% more E's fuel than gasoline. You do run a risk of damaging your fuel system (including tank), more so with E-85 since ethanol is very corrosive. These are major disadvantages
So why use it??
E-5 and E-85 have much higher octane number than gasoline, E-85 octane number is nearly 102 (ok, it is 101.6), nearly race fuel number! and that makes these fuels much more detonation resistant. Moreover these fuels burn cooler, and that is always good news for your engine. These two factors makes them very suitable for turbocharged and supercharged engines, allowing for running much more boost than when using pump fuel (especially here in Ireland where premium 98 octane gasoline is very difficult to find). These fuels also burn cleaner leaving much less deposites in your engine.
So your engine will run smoothly on E's and you will be saving the engine, making for prolonged use. As long as you run e-5 there is no real need for changing your ECU since ECU will compensate for lesser energy (heating value for geeks among us:)). I also have friends running on E-5 for over a year now and they do not report any major issues with corrosion (yetAs long as you run e-5 there is no real need for changing your ECU since ECU will compensate for lesser energy ). E-85 is another story, you need at least increased fuel pressure, the best option would be bigger injectors and programmed ECU, mapped by somebody knowledgeable, (E-85 burns slower so tempering with spark advance timing is needed), but you need to ask yourself a question is it worth the expenses?
Personally I would not switch NA engine to e-85, but I will convert whole fuel system to E-85 the moment I buy my second, turbocharged toy (there is a Nissan Silvia S 14a somewhere there with my name on it , but I am keeping the FTO anyway).
If anyone requires more sophisticated or in depth explanation or information on differences between E's and gasoline just shout.

I don't know where to start with this post? -

........You will have no power gains switching to E-5 or E85....

Wrong - even without changing parts the ECU will adjust for the extra octane. With the extra parts for fueling and a modded ECU you will see even better gains.

....... You do run a risk of damaging your fuel system (including tank), more so with E-85 since ethanol is very corrosive....

I've already mentioned this risk re rubber seals (which many believe to be overstated) but the petrol element will still be able to lubricate to a certain extent + there is no issue with your fuel tank unless your car is about 30years old - modern fuel tanks will be more than up to the job of handling ethanol.

............So your engine will run smoothly on E's and you will be saving the engine, making for prolonged use. As long as you run e-5 there is no real need for changing your ECU since ECU will compensate for lesser energy (heating value for geeks among us:)).

Nobody is argueing that you have to change your ECU for E5 - we are taking about E85 and mixes thereof.

............Personally I would not switch NA engine to e-85............

Not much of an option if you drive an FTO then? Aren't FTO's all NA? What options do you suggest for modding an FTO then?

............If anyone requires more sophisticated or in depth explanation or information on differences between E's and gasoline just shout.

I'd love to hear about it - do please elaborate.

[witcher]

Dear Dragonheart

If you do not know where to start, start from the beginning.

Right

Octane number (rating) is the resistance of petrol, or any other fuel, to autoignition, commonly called detonation, and does not relate to energy of the fuel. Therefore higher octane number does not indicate more power. Therefore -RIGHT- check your sources.

You mentioned the corrosive properties of E-85 - true, hats off - corrosion happens due to content of ethanol, and it will destroy your tank eventually, even faster if you have aluminium tank, aluminium and ethanol - bad combination. On a side notice the most corrosive are vapors of ethanol mixed with air, therefore if you do not use your car keep the fuel tank topped to the max (or empty) then the whole process is not so abrupt.

As you read my post I mentioned some friends of mine run their cars on E-5 and they have no problem, e-85 has higher content of ethanol, therefore the whole process will be accelerated, and ethanol is corrosive to any metal, so all your fueling system deteriorate, not only rubber parts, rubbers would be just perching, as you rightly mentioned, due to decreased lubrication, and since it is the weakest link, you will observe the damage on the rubber parts first.

As for increasing power of NA engine the options are quite limited if you do not want to go for forced induction.

But there are still options! You can port and polish the head(s) (of you engine Dragonheart ). Install bigger valves, install wilder cams, you will have gains from well designed intake and exhaust system, you can install throttle bodies, higher compression pistons (but that will rather increase torque, not power) rebore cylinders to higher capacity or install stroker kit, and, probably best value for money, you can remap the ECU. I would just suggest remapping ECU as the last option after you've installed all other upgrades, since all other mods will have influence on maps.

Dragonheart, I do not claim that I know it all, but when I decide to write something, I am sure of it, otherwise I follow the saying:
"better to be thought a fool and say nothing than to speak and remove all doubt"

If you still interested in E-85 I will write some more on the subject on Sunday, I am moving houses now and things are bit hectic.

If you want me to elaborate on pros and cons of each modification mentioned above I will gladly do it as well.

Cheers

Witcher

[Dragonheart]

Dear Witcher,
Check again who wrote the post before aiming it at me......
Nice info though, my mind is made up, I'm going to keep using the bio-eth, and upgrade my system to keep up with it.
Cheers.
Dragonheart .

[Myfeckin FTO]

Witcher - As per above post it was I who had the issue with your reply.

We were discussing the benefits of switching to E85 or a mix thereof and the general consensus was that there were gains to be had by upgrading the fueling system.

Your reply starts off with - " You will have no power gains switching to E-5 or E85" plus you also say "Personally I would not switch NA engine to e-85" yet in your later post you mention " You can port and polish the head... Install bigger valves, install wilder cams, you will have gains from well designed intake and exhaust system, you can install throttle bodies, higher compression pistons..... rebore cylinders to higher capacity or install stroker kit,......remap the ECU........."
- your list of suggested mods on an FTO involves major expense - surely the original suggestion of just an upgraded fuel pump, FRP and injectors running E85 makes more sense as an initial mod.

Don't get me wrong - I appreciate any extra info on the subject you can give and in particular an answer to the main topic of discussion - Are there power gains to be had from upgrading the fuel system and using E85?
If you don't believe so (as you stated already) perhaps you can give me some evidence as to why you believe that to be the case - i.e. that you have upgraded the fuel system on the FTO and done a before and after dyno run and found no benefits.

[witcher]

@ Dragonheart
My bad sorry mate, I am still blushing

@ My fecking FTO
I did state that there are no power gains from switching to e-85 and I still stand by my opinion. As for uprated fuel system, you will have the same gains using pump fuel as when switching to E-85. It is quite simple really, think of your engine as some kind of pump, the more air and fuel you get to the engine, the more power you get out of it. So it does not matter if you pump more pump fuel or e-85 or any other fuel for that matter. (well it matters in a sense that you will have to pump more e-85 to get the same gains as when using pump fuel). I was disputing your claim that higher octane number of particular fuel is related to power, it is not.

As for modification I mentioned, well, you asked what mods I suggest, so I wrote some I consider worthwhile.

I am not saying that people shall not try and modify their cars by whatever way they decide, any modification (preferably tried on rolling road for effectiveness) widens FTO tuning knowledgebase, even mods that do not work (at least we would know for sure something does not work).

Dragonheart made up his mind, he is switching to E-85, very good! I hope he will let us know about the outcome, it would be great to compare E-85 with pump fuel on N/A engine. I expressed my opinion based on my knowledge, but it is still my opinion only, you can agree with it or not. I also wrote what I know about E-85 not to show off, but to assist Dragonheart in his research on the subject, nothing more.

Jeez I am really tired these days, Dragonheart apologies again for mix up.
I just wrote an page long elaboration on FTO tuning and then I realized this one is not the topic for this, so I will just save it for use some other time. Moving houses is dreadful experience .

[witcher]

As promised I submit some more info on e-85 for your project Dragonheart.

Lets start form some basic information

There are several factors that influence fuel properties. Basic ones are Heating Value (HV), octane (O), and stoichiometric ratio (SR) ( it is an ideal proportion of fuel to air (kg/kg) ensuring total combustion of fuel)

For E-85 the values are:
HV = 29.19
O = 101.6
SR = 9.87

just for comparison same values for pump fuel (gasoline 95 0ctane)

HV = 44.4
0 = 95
SR = 14.6

Stoichiometric ratio (ideal) is lambda = 1 lambda is air/fuel ratio, lambda < 1 means you are running lean, lambda > 1 you are running rich. (the book can be written on this [and actually are written on the subject] so I will leave it at that.

Ok, what the above measures mean,

First of all E-85 has less energy than pump fuel, as the value is expressed in kj/kg it is logical that you will need more e-85 to get the same power than pump fuel, the information I found is that you need app 40 % more e-85 than gasoline, which is about right right judging by HV numbers.

Higher octane number indicates that e-85 is much more detonation resistant that pump fuel, as a rule fuel with higher octane number burns slower and the biggest power gains can be had here, as you can run much leaner mixture without sacrificing the reliability of the engine if you care for economy. The second factor worth considering is that you can run much more spark advance timing as it is in the case of pump fuel, resulting in more power.

SR - as indicated above is the ideal air fuel ratio, but only for chemists. In fact combustion of pump fuel can occur anywhere between 7.5:1 and 26:1. For us the most important information is that the greatest power can be achieved at 12,6:1 which is running rich. best fuel economy is on 15.4:1 in case of fuel pump.

In relation to E-85 I only found info on max power - 6.97. The general consensus is that for the best power you need app 20% more E-85 than SR.

As for spark advance timing you will be best talking to the person mapping your ECU, he can advise you best, but considerable power gains can be had if done right.

More about hazards in relation to E-85

As mentioned before by many people E-85 is corrosive. It is most destructive to bare magnesium, aluminum and rubber. Good news is that majority of vehicles manufactured after 1994 had to have fuel system capable of handling alcohol additives in fuel. Most of the people using e-85 recommends stainless steel fuel tank and fuel lines. Ethanol conducts electricity, therefore it might be good idea to change fuel pump for the one that can work with electrically conductive fuels, or install in line fuel pump. When you switch to e-85 do not forget to replace fuel filter after max 500 km, ethanol dissolves carbon, gum, rust deposites. if your fuel tank in not in great shape you might expect leaks after the deposits are dissolved, you can observe engine oil consumption.

here are links to some web sites i found on the subject:
http://www.eng-tips.com
http://www.bae.ksu.edu/precisionag/Pape ... thanol.htm
http://e85forum.com

to sum up.

I still think that e-85 conversion has much more sense in case of supercharged or turbocharged engine.

If the person mapping your ECU is good he will advance spark timing and you can get power increase this way, whether or not it is economical it is an open question.
(on a side notice there is no such thing as cheap performance tuning, there is only expensive and more expensive).

I hope the info helped.

I also hope you will do this conversion and let us all know about the outcome.

Good luck Dragonheart
W